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	<title>Comments on: Sustainable Agriculture is Pro-Technology Within a Cyclical Model</title>
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		<title>By: Civil Eats &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Food, Inc. Gets Rave Reviews, Big Ag Shutters</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3404</link>
		<dc:creator>Civil Eats &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Food, Inc. Gets Rave Reviews, Big Ag Shutters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3404</guid>
		<description>[...] the leafy greens and grains we are told are so good for us. Yet we support these claims out of some unyielding dedication to technology as our big fix. Even the recently passed Lugar-Casey Global Food Security Act slipped a cool 7.7 billion dollars [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the leafy greens and grains we are told are so good for us. Yet we support these claims out of some unyielding dedication to technology as our big fix. Even the recently passed Lugar-Casey Global Food Security Act slipped a cool 7.7 billion dollars [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Prudhomme</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3397</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Prudhomme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3397</guid>
		<description>Quoting Kurt:

&quot;only a very small minority of people want to get their hands dirty&quot;

&quot;Admittedly, I write about technology and the efficiency of today’s farms–yet I see room for both large and small farms, giving consumers choices. And that is happening.&quot;

Your point about people not wanting to get their hands dirty is valid, but I think it is more of an economic one than a cultural one. 
People will be a lot more willing to put their hands in the dirt if they can make some money doing it. Right now they can&#039;t because machines and chemicals do it cheaper. What it boils down to is this concept of efficiency. The price of entry to run an &quot;efficient&quot; industrial vegetable or grain farm is pretty high, you need to purchase or rent expensive machinery, you have to pay to run and maintain that machinery, pay constantly for various chemical inputs and on top of that you probably need a lot of land to be able to keep up with the discounting and bulk production of the other big operations out there. 

I think we need to redefine this term efficiency. &quot;Industrial Ag&quot; often boasts of how efficient their operations and yields are. The efficiency they boast of is purely a monetary one though, and hinges on the fact that energy from oil right now is dirt cheap compared to human labor. So &quot;efficient&quot; really means &quot;less human labor needed&quot;. That&#039;s pretty much it. If you look at energy use, human powered farms at the beginning of this century yielded a positive energy gain (you have to, otherwise you die!). If we look at farming with machinery and chemicals, it takes several times more calories of energy of input than you get out of the system in food....add into that soil erosion and a significant amount of pollution (from running machinery and pesticide/herbicide/fertilizer leaching) and the whole cost of the current system is staggering. In terms of whole yields, industrial agriculture manages to make some money, but in all other costs it is deep in the red. Ultimately these costs will catch up to us because they are based in a physical system that has limits, checks and balances and will ultimately start collecting on that debt. 

So when industrial agriculture says &quot;efficient&quot; all they really mean is &quot;makes money&quot;. As oil prices rise, expect to see more human and animal powered farms. This goes back to my previous point, technology can take us only so far. And energy does not come from nowhere. We have been borrowing energy from the past to feed ourselves, but now we have to look at given the current energy available to us, how do we balance the books?? That is the technological challenge that we all face in the coming decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quoting Kurt:</p>
<p>&#8220;only a very small minority of people want to get their hands dirty&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Admittedly, I write about technology and the efficiency of today’s farms–yet I see room for both large and small farms, giving consumers choices. And that is happening.&#8221;</p>
<p>Your point about people not wanting to get their hands dirty is valid, but I think it is more of an economic one than a cultural one.<br />
People will be a lot more willing to put their hands in the dirt if they can make some money doing it. Right now they can&#8217;t because machines and chemicals do it cheaper. What it boils down to is this concept of efficiency. The price of entry to run an &#8220;efficient&#8221; industrial vegetable or grain farm is pretty high, you need to purchase or rent expensive machinery, you have to pay to run and maintain that machinery, pay constantly for various chemical inputs and on top of that you probably need a lot of land to be able to keep up with the discounting and bulk production of the other big operations out there. </p>
<p>I think we need to redefine this term efficiency. &#8220;Industrial Ag&#8221; often boasts of how efficient their operations and yields are. The efficiency they boast of is purely a monetary one though, and hinges on the fact that energy from oil right now is dirt cheap compared to human labor. So &#8220;efficient&#8221; really means &#8220;less human labor needed&#8221;. That&#8217;s pretty much it. If you look at energy use, human powered farms at the beginning of this century yielded a positive energy gain (you have to, otherwise you die!). If we look at farming with machinery and chemicals, it takes several times more calories of energy of input than you get out of the system in food&#8230;.add into that soil erosion and a significant amount of pollution (from running machinery and pesticide/herbicide/fertilizer leaching) and the whole cost of the current system is staggering. In terms of whole yields, industrial agriculture manages to make some money, but in all other costs it is deep in the red. Ultimately these costs will catch up to us because they are based in a physical system that has limits, checks and balances and will ultimately start collecting on that debt. </p>
<p>So when industrial agriculture says &#8220;efficient&#8221; all they really mean is &#8220;makes money&#8221;. As oil prices rise, expect to see more human and animal powered farms. This goes back to my previous point, technology can take us only so far. And energy does not come from nowhere. We have been borrowing energy from the past to feed ourselves, but now we have to look at given the current energy available to us, how do we balance the books?? That is the technological challenge that we all face in the coming decades.</p>
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		<title>By: Organic Farm is High Tech, OY VEY IS it ever! &#171; Farm To Table: The Emerging American Meal</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3395</link>
		<dc:creator>Organic Farm is High Tech, OY VEY IS it ever! &#171; Farm To Table: The Emerging American Meal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3395</guid>
		<description>[...] OY VEY IS it&#160;ever!  Posted on June 11, 2009 by Zachary Cohen   There have been a couple of interesting articles recently addressing the criticism that organic farming is an out of date practice. That [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] OY VEY IS it&nbsp;ever!  Posted on June 11, 2009 by Zachary Cohen   There have been a couple of interesting articles recently addressing the criticism that organic farming is an out of date practice. That [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ecosutra</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3391</link>
		<dc:creator>Ecosutra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3391</guid>
		<description>Permaculture teaches how to do sustainable agriculture easy. After you install your 5 acres demonstration designs, you only have to work 500 hours a year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Permaculture teaches how to do sustainable agriculture easy. After you install your 5 acres demonstration designs, you only have to work 500 hours a year.</p>
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		<title>By: Janine Yorio</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3390</link>
		<dc:creator>Janine Yorio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3390</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sustainable agriculture is that which embraces the necessary cyclical nature of agriculture systems. This doesn’t mean that no technology is to be employed, but that technologies will be employed that further that underlying aim.&quot;

There will be a conference in New York City this September to demonstrate the overlap between sustainability, profitability and technology, in an effort to attract much needed investment capital to this sector.  

For more information: www.newseedadvisors.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sustainable agriculture is that which embraces the necessary cyclical nature of agriculture systems. This doesn’t mean that no technology is to be employed, but that technologies will be employed that further that underlying aim.&#8221;</p>
<p>There will be a conference in New York City this September to demonstrate the overlap between sustainability, profitability and technology, in an effort to attract much needed investment capital to this sector.  </p>
<p>For more information: <a href="http://www.newseedadvisors.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.newseedadvisors.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Civil Eats &#38; Techno-Ag &#171; The Happy Dish</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3388</link>
		<dc:creator>Civil Eats &#38; Techno-Ag &#171; The Happy Dish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3388</guid>
		<description>[...] read the whole thing @ Civil Eats    [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] read the whole thing @ Civil Eats    [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Technology and the Progressive Food Movements &#171; Farm To Table: The Emerging American Meal</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3382</link>
		<dc:creator>Technology and the Progressive Food Movements &#171; Farm To Table: The Emerging American Meal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3382</guid>
		<description>[...] Please read the whole thing @ Civil Eats [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Please read the whole thing @ Civil Eats [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Lawton</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3380</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Lawton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3380</guid>
		<description>Paula

I agree that your definition of &quot;sustainable ag&quot; (which is different from mine--another story) is not about hand tools and hard labor, similar to what I grew up doing on our small Iowa farm in the 60s and 70s. You are correct that there are very progressive organic farms today.

I believe the point that Fedoroff was implying (albeit poorly stated though) is that our society can&#039;t go back to the millions of small farms that fed a completely different society 40-50 years ago. 

Would I love to see more growth of small advanced farms today? Absolutely. The biggest challenge with that thinking is that only a very small minority of people want to get their hands dirty--in an industry I still love to this day.

Admittedly, I write about technology and the efficiency of today&#039;s farms--yet I see room for both large and small farms, giving consumers choices. And that is happening.

Yet just like you, I&#039;d like to see several binary arguments put to bed as well. Like the notion of &#039;factory farms&#039; and &#039;industrial agriculture.&#039; Certain people have such a warped notion of the &#039;corporations&#039; that run them. 95% of them are run by simple families (like my brother&#039;s family). And he doesn&#039;t worship technology, like many don&#039;t.

And the other disagreement that is way out there in left field is the notion that animals raised for food should be deemed the same as pets. Now granted, we had 4-H animals that we showed at county and state fairs, and we became real attached to them, like pets. But we knew their true purpose in life, and understood that. Now I love vegetables too (we had huge gardens), and I respect vegetarians-- until they try to force their habits on others.

I&#039;m not as sold as you are that our society is sold on technology keeping us perfect. And I have a hard time seeing a society that views agriculture as the foundation and lifeblood. Only a small minority actually realize that. 

Your average consumers don&#039;t care where their food comes from, as long as it&#039;s relatively safe--which it is. Sure there&#039;s issues here and there, but no system is perfect. 

I&#039;ve rambled long enough. Time to go get a juicy cheeseburger, with some veggies, too.

Kurt

Just to note my background--ex-Iowa farm boy who grew up on a small livestock &amp; grain farm in the late 60s and early 70s. Today I live in the burbs of the Twin Cities, yet remain an agricultural journalist, as I have followed the industry since 1981.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paula</p>
<p>I agree that your definition of &#8220;sustainable ag&#8221; (which is different from mine&#8211;another story) is not about hand tools and hard labor, similar to what I grew up doing on our small Iowa farm in the 60s and 70s. You are correct that there are very progressive organic farms today.</p>
<p>I believe the point that Fedoroff was implying (albeit poorly stated though) is that our society can&#8217;t go back to the millions of small farms that fed a completely different society 40-50 years ago. </p>
<p>Would I love to see more growth of small advanced farms today? Absolutely. The biggest challenge with that thinking is that only a very small minority of people want to get their hands dirty&#8211;in an industry I still love to this day.</p>
<p>Admittedly, I write about technology and the efficiency of today&#8217;s farms&#8211;yet I see room for both large and small farms, giving consumers choices. And that is happening.</p>
<p>Yet just like you, I&#8217;d like to see several binary arguments put to bed as well. Like the notion of &#8216;factory farms&#8217; and &#8216;industrial agriculture.&#8217; Certain people have such a warped notion of the &#8216;corporations&#8217; that run them. 95% of them are run by simple families (like my brother&#8217;s family). And he doesn&#8217;t worship technology, like many don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>And the other disagreement that is way out there in left field is the notion that animals raised for food should be deemed the same as pets. Now granted, we had 4-H animals that we showed at county and state fairs, and we became real attached to them, like pets. But we knew their true purpose in life, and understood that. Now I love vegetables too (we had huge gardens), and I respect vegetarians&#8211; until they try to force their habits on others.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not as sold as you are that our society is sold on technology keeping us perfect. And I have a hard time seeing a society that views agriculture as the foundation and lifeblood. Only a small minority actually realize that. </p>
<p>Your average consumers don&#8217;t care where their food comes from, as long as it&#8217;s relatively safe&#8211;which it is. Sure there&#8217;s issues here and there, but no system is perfect. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve rambled long enough. Time to go get a juicy cheeseburger, with some veggies, too.</p>
<p>Kurt</p>
<p>Just to note my background&#8211;ex-Iowa farm boy who grew up on a small livestock &amp; grain farm in the late 60s and early 70s. Today I live in the burbs of the Twin Cities, yet remain an agricultural journalist, as I have followed the industry since 1981.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Prudhomme</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3379</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Prudhomme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3379</guid>
		<description>These are some excellent points. Technology is nothing more than creation and application of tools using the best information that we have available to us. One of the traps that we currently are facing is the belief that technology can somehow surpass the physical limitations of the system that we call planet earth. Even nanotechnology is limited by the physical exchanges between molecules, atoms and their parts. These exchanges are finite and are limited by time so we shouldn&#039;t let hubris lead us into delusion. We have catapulted into the last two centuries propelled by dead organic matter that accumulated over an incredibly long period of time. While we are currently tinkering with the system, our existence and success still rely on the earth&#039;s technologies (plants, animals, microbes, fungi). These technologies are the result of billions of years of &quot;research and development&quot;, and they do an amazing job of converting the energy of sun, wind and water into life, abundance and beauty. Birds were defying gravity long before we figured it out, and they still use a whole lot less energy in flight than we do. Mushroom spores are dispersed with such immense velocity and efficiency that they reach an acceleration of 180,000g (compare that to our space shuttle&#039;s puny 4g acceleration). So we shouldn&#039;t get so cocky when we talk about the greatness of our technology. Nature has some amazing technologies that we are only just now starting to even understand, much less replicate. 

What human technology does not do is teach us how to live within our means. There will always be limits to the system, no matter how far we push it. Right now we are reaching the end of the fossil fuels trajectory....the wax on Icarus&#039;s wings is starting to melt, the our rocket fuel is starting to run low, and we need to figure out how to start finding and building parachutes so we can make it down safely and start preparing for the next big launch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are some excellent points. Technology is nothing more than creation and application of tools using the best information that we have available to us. One of the traps that we currently are facing is the belief that technology can somehow surpass the physical limitations of the system that we call planet earth. Even nanotechnology is limited by the physical exchanges between molecules, atoms and their parts. These exchanges are finite and are limited by time so we shouldn&#8217;t let hubris lead us into delusion. We have catapulted into the last two centuries propelled by dead organic matter that accumulated over an incredibly long period of time. While we are currently tinkering with the system, our existence and success still rely on the earth&#8217;s technologies (plants, animals, microbes, fungi). These technologies are the result of billions of years of &#8220;research and development&#8221;, and they do an amazing job of converting the energy of sun, wind and water into life, abundance and beauty. Birds were defying gravity long before we figured it out, and they still use a whole lot less energy in flight than we do. Mushroom spores are dispersed with such immense velocity and efficiency that they reach an acceleration of 180,000g (compare that to our space shuttle&#8217;s puny 4g acceleration). So we shouldn&#8217;t get so cocky when we talk about the greatness of our technology. Nature has some amazing technologies that we are only just now starting to even understand, much less replicate. </p>
<p>What human technology does not do is teach us how to live within our means. There will always be limits to the system, no matter how far we push it. Right now we are reaching the end of the fossil fuels trajectory&#8230;.the wax on Icarus&#8217;s wings is starting to melt, the our rocket fuel is starting to run low, and we need to figure out how to start finding and building parachutes so we can make it down safely and start preparing for the next big launch.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://civileats.com/2009/06/09/sustainable-ag-is-pro-technology-within-a-cyclical-model/comment-page-1/#comment-3378</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://civileats.com/?p=3948#comment-3378</guid>
		<description>Working on a farm, I see for myself how recent technological advances make agriculture more sustainable. We would not be able to rotate cows to a new paddock every day if not for portable electric fencing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Working on a farm, I see for myself how recent technological advances make agriculture more sustainable. We would not be able to rotate cows to a new paddock every day if not for portable electric fencing.</p>
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